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Author Topic: Player-Owned Shops  (Read 802 times)

ErthParadine

Player-Owned Shops
« on: April 09, 2016, 04:36:26 PM »
We're considering the setup of player-owned shops. In particular, you're given access to a spawn docking port, where you're responsible for building a trade shop for pilots to visit and trade.

What do you think?

spocklin

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2016, 10:05:09 PM »
I do live in an entirely different galaxy with a few other factions so this may not benefit me all that much but I think it's a good idea if you want to do that.

ErthParadine

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2016, 10:26:12 PM »
Well, warp gates do go 1024 sectors right now. A midway station, and you're back in spawn :-)

Darwynn

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2016, 08:44:07 PM »
What the point of player owned shops when there are so many npc shops.  Remove the npc shops from spawning with this setting server setting:

SHOP_SPAWNING_PROBABILITY = 0.0 //(must be between 0 and 1): 0 is no shops spawned in asteroid sectors, 1 is shop spawned in everyone (default: 8% -> 0.08)

ErthParadine

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2016, 11:49:13 PM »
What the point of player owned shops when there are so many npc shops.  Remove the npc shops from spawning with this setting server setting:

SHOP_SPAWNING_PROBABILITY = 0.0 //(must be between 0 and 1): 0 is no shops spawned in asteroid sectors, 1 is shop spawned in everyone (default: 8% -> 0.08)


It's currently set to 0.01, not sure we're ready to eliminate new shop spawning all-together.

Captainairspeed

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2016, 04:31:23 PM »
if were going to implement lots of player shops we need to think of a way to make people go to them as a lot of people myself included just head back to the infinite spawn shop to get stuff as its easier than going say to wolfes spacemart or my old trading hub if we were going to add player owned shops their needs a to be a way players can attract customers or as Dawyyn said their is no point
I'll get around to doing It later right now I'm doing something else

Saa

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2016, 07:06:23 AM »
If you want player-owned shops to be in any way significant, please reduce the number of NPC shops by at least 75%.

Captainairspeed

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2016, 12:43:28 PM »
its already down aload saa
I'll get around to doing It later right now I'm doing something else

Darwynn

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2016, 05:43:58 PM »
the best way that i have seen to make player owned shops meaningful is to take highly sought after items out of the shops.

like shields, all weapons but 1 type, stop effect, transporters, warheads  you know stuff like that. that way to only way to get them is to make them or buy them from players who supply them

Saa

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2016, 10:01:52 PM »
With so many credits and a perma-stocked spawn shop, there is no reason for inter-player trade.

Perhaps effects & advanced armor should be taken off the commercial market, making them only able to be acquired through production or direct inter-player trade. This would still allow players to build basic industrial and war ships, but would force real economic interaction to acquire high-end materials, giving advanced players something to do (striving to hoard rare components for their elite ships and stations).

ErthParadine

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2016, 11:09:04 PM »
I like the idea of removing items from the shops.

Right now, I don't see why shops need to carry blocks for:
warheads, shield, cloak, stop effects, and transporters. The eventual goal is removal of all but perhaps ship core and caps...but for the first removal round, any others?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 05:46:23 AM by ErthParadine »

Saa

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2016, 11:18:58 PM »
It seems to be successful on Galaxies Aflame server.

ErthParadine

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2016, 07:50:32 PM »
With no dissenting commentary on the proposal to encourage use of player-owned ships by removing warheads, shield, cloak, stop effects, and transporters from AI shops. I will plan to implement this on the 24th.

In addition, as a further deterrent of AI-run shops:
  • Spawn's restock interval will be reduced to once per hour on the 24th as well. Further reductions will be implemented - but that needs timing feedback.
  • Removal of shop rails from normal shops on the 22nd.


UPDATE: Read further below. We had to adjust our approach on this.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 08:33:06 PM by ErthParadine »

MacThule

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2016, 02:50:07 PM »
well i think that at least Basic items for building civvy ships and getting around need to stay available in the NPC shops. things like minerals, crystals and other decorative stuff too; those are a big source of credit income from the Trade Guild if you eventually want to draw down the cash infusions.

i don't know if the server config even allows it, but it would be amazing if the shop storage cap could be pushed up from a measly 50K to like 1/2M or 1M. i think that's hard coded, but worth mentioning.  ;D

Sachys

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2016, 02:58:53 PM »
shop rails have already vanished from my local shops.

not sure about this one - might be better to keep them. is there reasoning against having them?!

ErthParadine

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2016, 03:28:23 PM »
shop rails have already vanished from my local shops.

not sure about this one - might be better to keep them. is there reasoning against having them?!

We've been running into issues where pilots have established multiple homebases, by docking turrets for invuln, and/or a ship hull around a tiny station (for factories). Ultimately, our emphasis is upon player-run economy, which means making it a little more risky to hang with the AIs.

Sachys

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2016, 03:35:40 PM »
We've been running into issues where pilots have established multiple homebases, by docking turrets for invuln, and/or a ship hull around a tiny station (for factories). Ultimately, our emphasis is upon player-run economy, which means making it a little more risky to hang with the AIs.

Ah, so it happened!
thing is, i cant move the ship that was docked to the shop. O____o

not that it matters much - it was a tester and its in my territory

ErthParadine

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2016, 03:41:34 PM »
We've been running into issues where pilots have established multiple homebases, by docking turrets for invuln, and/or a ship hull around a tiny station (for factories). Ultimately, our emphasis is upon player-run economy, which means making it a little more risky to hang with the AIs.

Ah, so it happened!
thing is, i cant move the ship that was docked to the shop. O____o

not that it matters much - it was a tester and its in my territory

Yea, my original response to that issue was to just shop elsewhere, but then in hindsight...the idea of multiple free invulnerable homebases really isn't fair to the overall population - and it's not an intended use of the game mechanics.

Sachys

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2016, 04:21:08 PM »
Yea, my original response to that issue was to just shop elsewhere, but then in hindsight...the idea of multiple free invulnerable homebases really isn't fair to the overall population - and it's not an intended use of the game mechanics.
yarp! - just like i said - an exploit (if used as such).

ErthParadine

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2016, 02:23:20 PM »
It seems to be successful on Galaxies Aflame server.

They claim to have removed these modules on forums/website, and on their login message. But I just jumped onto their server, and all items can be readily purchased from the shop closest to spawn.

ErthParadine

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2016, 02:33:44 PM »
It appears that module removal from shops also removes them from creative mode, including a shipyard's "edit" mode.

Considering that we cannot yet limit shop inventory either. In the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish, I've re-added items into the shops, and adjusted their prices to 100,000/each. Shops also have very limited purchasing power now as well.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 03:04:51 PM by ErthParadine »

MacThule

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2016, 03:02:54 PM »
ouch! well that's definitely a problem. :-\

if you haven't already, i'll launch into a suggestion on the docks about having them separate those values. i'm guessing it won't happen until... whenever though, even with them doing another week of bugfixes. player shops have been broken for years by simple stuff like setting customer permissions not staying and not being able to set buy/sell prices to be different; not to mention the shop total stock limits not being able to be adjusted from 50K even at the server level. All of which could probably fixed by one person in an afternoon. In my repeated requests for attention to the economy on the forums, i've been basically given the impression that it's being put off until they implement some 'upcoming' major changes to economy.

the problem, from my perspective, is that they've been putting off for years now a few minor bugfixes on account of a planned major overhaul at some indeterminate future date. meanwhile we have near-useless shops. i'm guessing that the response to a request for separating shop availability from availability in creative mode will also be "we have some amazing stuff coming for shops in the future - wait and see."

Sachys

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2016, 03:25:29 PM »
It appears that module removal from shops also removes them from creative mode, including a shipyard's "edit" mode.

Considering that we cannot yet limit shop inventory either. In the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish, I've re-added items into the shops, and adjusted their prices to 100,000/each. Shops also have very limited purchasing power now as well.

didnt return to shipyards though

ErthParadine

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2016, 10:08:02 PM »
It appears that module removal from shops also removes them from creative mode, including a shipyard's "edit" mode.

Considering that we cannot yet limit shop inventory either. In the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish, I've re-added items into the shops, and adjusted their prices to 100,000/each. Shops also have very limited purchasing power now as well.

didnt return to shipyards though


Yea, sorry for the vagueness: the changes will take effect at the next scheduled restart.

Sachys

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2016, 10:11:21 PM »
Yea, sorry for the vagueness: the changes will take effect at the next scheduled restart.
so tomorrow EU time then?! cool. ta!

ErthParadine

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2016, 02:12:38 PM »
Spawn shop now restocks every 6 hours.


spocklin

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2016, 03:02:36 PM »
I think the real problem with this idea is that there are too many people who will just raid the player-made trade stations as we saw a few nights ago. We cannot afford to let the price of blocks and other items to go out of control as a lower supply of stuff at shops that are extremely vulnerable will make the price for everything so high that not even 250 mil credits per vote would let you buy anything. I was on another server that had these similar features in the game, it's not up anymore, and at one point the price of a shield capacitor was 30000 credits each multiplied by 100k shield caps and that's a lot of credits. If you are going to institute player shops they might as well be in protected sectors as some players will use these are constant targets for farming new players or just killing players for fun and then blowing up their stations. Again I see a lot of ways that this can be abused by members of our community. I do not want to hear the argument "oh well if the player can't defend their own ship then they shouldn't hang around player shops" as this is an example of douchebaggery that should not be tolerated on any server. Some players have massive ships that most others won't be able to defend against and this is why these player run public trade shops should be protected.

KillaKrazy

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2016, 03:12:40 PM »
Player shops should be raidable.  If you want to build one, you should either build a protection fleet of your own or gather a group of factions to deploy fleets for protection.  If you start making player shops in protected sectors soon everyone will cry and ask for protected sectors.

luewind

Re: Player-Owned Shops
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2016, 03:20:46 PM »
Ever consider that shop owners could pay a PVP faction for protection? Competition makes the game interesting. In any other game miners/builders depend on fighters just as fighters depend of the miners. The economy and the players will adapt.